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Whippy

SAI sucks.....I need a new art program....

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Yesterday, in SAI, I'd just finished painting on a commission for about 30 mins maybe an hour when I went to crop it down some. The contents of the background layers disappeared completely and I couldn't undo this at all. The program kept bitching about no memory, so I checked my hard drive where it and it's temp files were and sure enough there was only like 200mb left!! So I killed the program and lost all the changes I'd made that day. I moved SAI to my 2TB drive and set it's temp folder to that drive as well. Made complete sense, I thought I'd goofed up by not watching my HD space and this time I was gonna be careful. Solved, right?

WRONG!!!  I did another test. This time with a 5000 x 5000 pixel canvas. I simply filled a layer with a color with ALT+Delete. Then I copied this layer, again, and again. I found to my disgust, that I could only make 3....yes 3 layers like this until SAI errored out and bitched about memory problems. If I use a 4000 x 4000 pixel canvas, the limit is 5 layers. So it doesn't matter so much about hard drive space, it's memory.

In 32 bit Windows, every program is limited to 2gb of RAM, period. I think most programs get around this by using temp files. Photoshop sure does!!! Out the wazooo!!!  I dunno what SAI does...but it's not the same. I have 3GB of RAM. But I'm thinking it wouldn't even matter if I have 50000GB of RAM in this case with SAI, due to this 2GB limit!!! >___<.

Does anybody know of a way around this? Even in Linux using wine (yes I'm willing to go there). I don't think they make a 64bit version of SAI though. Right now I'm thinking about going back to Photoshop, maybe even switching my OS over to 64bit something. Just not very happy about this atm.
Viewed: 77 times
Added: 6 years, 11 months ago
 
cooncub
6 years, 11 months ago
You could try "gimp 2"
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Uh......I'm really not a fan of gimp's interface....it's ugly as sin ^//////^
I just find it really clunky to use and not very intuitive.  Sorry...
cooncub
6 years, 11 months ago
I use windows paint and mouse to draw for now, gimp does seem rather hard to use. Most here seem to use that SAI that you have.
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
mmm hmmm. SAI's a very popular program because it's so easy to use and is geared towards drawing and painting. I just wish they'd update it, it's going the way of OpenCanvas.
CLCoon
6 years, 11 months ago
I would say Photoshop, but if not trained that's even worse XD
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Hahaha! I'm 'trained', no worries there. I used to use Photoshop exclusively back in 2004-2005 then only used it for huge projects that required something reliable.
CLCoon
6 years, 11 months ago
well looks like you will use it more now if you think SAI sucks, and I do agree about that by the way XD
Tweaker
6 years, 11 months ago
I think you just need to work around it more than anything else. SAI doesn't suck; it's just not been updated in a while and hasn't really been prepared to account for memory discrepancies on a 64-bit system. For example, if you really want to set up the crops properly, one thing you could do is export to PSD first, open it in Photoshop, crop it, then open it back up in SAI.

Just as a test, I also replicated your proposed method of testing SAI's capabilities. I was able to make 10 layers with the bucket fill you described at 5000x5000 before my system starting slowing down massively. And it didn't even crash! I don't know if it's the version I have that allows me to or if it's the fact that I'm on 64-bit Windows 7 with 4GB RAM, but it definitely shows to me that the issues are less that of the program and more centric on your particular computer setup. That's not specifically your fault or anything, but it's something to keep in mind.

How much RAM do you have and what OS do you currently use? This may be something you can solve by just switching your software setup a bit or something.
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
hmmm 0__0

I'm using Windows XP 32bit with 3GB of RAM.
10 layers at 5000 pixels is prettty good actually. I rarely use that many layers that are completely full.
I guess it's time I switched. Just not looking forward to it ^/////^ I'll have to buy more RAM too, but I guess it's for the best overall.
Tweaker
6 years, 11 months ago
Yeah, XP has some memory management issues that 7 fixed forever ago. When I still used XP I had a huge problem where taking up too much memory would destroy the Windows network stack, routinely knocking me offline just for doing something intensive. Windows 7 made a LOT of improvements in that regard that made things a million times more straightforward and optimized.

Do you actually have a 64-bit processor? It goes without saying that a 64-bit OS won't provide any benefits without the appropriate architecture. :P

Btw, if you'd also like to give my particular copy of SAI a try I can throw it your way; I have no idea if later releases just fucked its memory management up or not.
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
XP would knock you offline just because of memory issues??!! Damn!!! I've never heard of that before.

Yes, I do have a 64bit processor, it's an AMD 2.4ghz 4 core. I know running a 32 bit OS might seem rather silly, but I was worried that I lot of programs I depend on just wouldn't work, not to mention drivers.

In this case, I really believe that it's my OS and hardware that's causing this. But I'll definately take you up on that offer if nothing else works.

Ya know something...I think I'll just build a new computer. My motherboard only supports DDR2 and the prices are retarded. I can get a stick of DRR3 4GB for about $20!!!! The trouble is, I'd have to get the CPU and Motherboard to go with it, and I'd like to have some real PCI slots. *searches around*
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
I'm curious, when you tried that test on SAI, in the status bar on the bottom, what did it say on about the memory used and reserved? I noticed that SAI will always error out when the reserved memory reaches near 2gb (an my case 1,928mb). I'm curious what your memory limit is.
Tweaker
6 years, 11 months ago
I only have 1245MB of reserved memory, apparently. It fucked up hardcore the second it hit around 96%-98%, probably because it started taking memory that was being used by other programs (and/or was expanding the pagefile).
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Huh...!! Weird. So your's is reserving LESS memory with the same 5000 pixel canvas? Mine looks like:
Memory load: 94% (1674MB used / 1929MB reserved)
tannim
6 years, 11 months ago
You can try windows 8 for free currently with the developer preview until june 2012.  See how that works for you :}

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/br229516
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Hehehe! Maybe....I dunno if I'm that beta happy with OSes just yet ^.^ I'd like to have something stable.
tannim
6 years, 11 months ago
when I tried it it was pretty stable.  You could always dual boot I suppose.  or use two hard drives :}
AndyBunneh
6 years, 11 months ago
I use MS Paint, always reliable for when I draw my lewd stick-figure bunnies XD
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Oooh!! Murrr! I gotta try that! LOL!
DaddyDuckyBE
6 years, 11 months ago
Ever tried oil painting on canvas and use a webcam to bring your uploads to the web? ;)

Or you could go the devolutionary way that I've just seen in Ken Russell's Altered states (1980): Become a monkey and do us some cave paintings! Ain't evolutionary backwards compatibility just awesome! :P

(The above post was brought to you by circa 30 hours of no sleep. GOO-GOO-G'JOOB!)
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
LOL!!! I would do oil painting but it's kinda expensive for me atm :D

Daddy...I command you to sleep noooooowwww! lol
Seriously man...staying up that long induces headaches and all sorts of mental messed upness!!
DaddyDuckyBE
6 years, 11 months ago
Seriously, it's this awesome acquintance I've made on F-list lately, she RPs as Hermione and Ginny for me...but she's hardly ever on, and I just keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting... *cue the spinning, spiralling, endlessly looping proto-acid rock progression chord of I want you (She's so heavy) off The Beatles' 1969 Abbey Road album*
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Ahhh...no matter how good that RP is ...you gotta take care of yourself man.  :p Get her IM, then catch her when she's really on.
FlyingFox
6 years, 11 months ago
I could get 10+ layers as well tho it did start to slow down around 8 I went up to 11 without it crashing, but damn 5000x5000 is huge, I use 3000x2000 and I think thats going a little overboard :x

Oh and It havent crashed yet, I just choose to stop at 11 since I rarely draw 11 layers full of colour :P
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
You should've kept on making layers to figure out your limit. What OS are you running? How much RAM do you have?
FlyingFox
6 years, 11 months ago
I got 6gb of ddr ram and the cpu is a quadcore and im running Windows Vista.
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Ah okay, must be 64 bit too. That explains a lot more. ^^ Thanks!!
FlyingFox
6 years, 11 months ago
my Com is around 2 years old so its pretty outdated too. try cutting your pixelsize in half until you find a better program. not much details is lost at 2500 pixel.
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Ehhh....that's just the thing....I really like SAI and love using it. I'll try chopping my size down to 3000, that used to be the max size for opencanvas beta.
Knoton
6 years, 11 months ago
It's been a while since drivers have been a common issue on 64 bit systems. Unless you have older or niche hardware, then I'd double check before upgrading, but I would absolutely recommend the upgrade.
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Most of my hardware is pretty new. Except for one PCI Hauppage TV capture card. I rarely use that though. And yeah...32bit is starting to cramp my style ^///^
ForeRest
6 years, 11 months ago
That issue has been happening to me as well, but discovered a particular update was responsible, one of the JAVA updates was responsible. I just downloaded older versions of JAVA and one of my 5 or 6 download made the magic. Basically most of the programs that are made with java are having huge memory issues, This includes Zend Studio, an application I use to develop in PHP using the zend framework. after I downgraded to the right version of java, all my issues were solved. I don't know if this could help you solve your current issue, but it helped me for sure.

Now, if you really want to try a different APP, I most recommend Manga Studio EX 4 :D
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
Huh..wow, sounds like a nice development environment.  If SAI used JAVA at all, that would be the first thing I'd blame, but it doesn't unfortunately.

Manga Studio...I've looked at that before. It's rather nice! A lot like SAI except way more features.
NariFox
6 years, 11 months ago
I got to 15 layers of full color before I got the memory error, though it said: Memory load: 87% (3670MB used / 3985 MB reserved). I figured I could get a bit more than that! :P Once all 15 layers are fully colored, it DOES lag my shit down considerably. It sort of... crash-closed in the end, heh. I never work on such a large scale, however. That's crazy huge! :P

I'm on Win7 64 bit with 4GB DDR3 on an Asus G60JX laptop. Maybe it IS an issue with your "outdated" OS and hardware.
NariFox
6 years, 11 months ago
Oh, and the CPU is a dual core i5 Intel processor, though laptop CPUs are always a bit different than their PC counterparts anyway. My friend decided she'd be cool and get the i7 version, quadcore, and the grates around her internal fans melted... fail. She still hasn't found a way to cool that shit effectively! I'm happy with my setup right now since I don't have the space for a PC and don't need that fancy face-melting core crap. :P I run Skyrim just fine on a combo of High/Ultra settings, thank you very much!
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
That's halarious!!! Haha!! Sounds like the i7 grillmax!  Intell processors are pretty fast. I still can't decide between Intel and AMD (i have a desktop PC btw)
Whippy
6 years, 11 months ago
According to this, the limit on 32bit apps is really 4gb. But I Think that applies to 64bit windows. With 32bit XP, I read that you have to set a boot flag in boot.ini for apps to use more than 2gb of RAM. But despite that, I'd still like to upgrade because DDR3 is so cheap and I need a better MoBo anyway lol.
NariFox
6 years, 11 months ago
DDR3 is sickeningly cheap, yes, lol. If I ever move out of the tiny room my mate and I share in his mom's house, I'd love to have a PC again lol. The portability is nice with going to college, but I miss crazy-cool towers and all that good (mostly) cheap hardware. Plus, it's a little nerve-wracking when you consider the possibility of something going wrong with a laptop and having no real clue how to fix the tiny, alien thing!
daverabfur
6 years, 11 months ago
Limit on 32 windows is 4GB. But, that's not true. It's 4GB period because of 32 bit addressing limits (see the article though. Processors themselves can address to 40 bits at least, windows xp just wasn't released supporting it). Then there's the fact video memory and a few other items are mapped into ram for DMA purposes. So now in most cases you're down to 3.5 or 3.25GB of accessible ram.

Then there's the fact the 32 bit NT kernal in XP by default assigns 2GB to Windows itself. Usually it does this with the pre-mapped area included, so you have 2GB usable for userland programs.

There's ways around this. Tom's Hardware had an article for a few kludges to get around the problem. Not sure if it'll actually help you with only 3GB installed, but you could probably go up to 4 or 8GB for $40 at most. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ram-memory-upgrade...
Teko
6 years, 11 months ago
Ever tried ArtRage? I use Photoshop all day, but ArtRage is helpful when I need more natural-looking paint tools.
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